PB Governing Body... looking ahead.

[Wheelz]

(Duplicate from other forum, just going for max. exposure)

It seems most, if not, all of us would like to see some sort of regulatory body governing, censoring and sanctioning the activities of the paintball sport in NZ.
We need to do this in order for our sport to have credibility with authorities and public separating us from the rogue operators/players.

There have been a few failed attempts in the past and that's where I'd like to leave them.

What we need is positive suggestions aimed at arming the right set of people with the appropriate skills to carry this out on our behalf with our full support both morally and financially.

**Please keep flaming, accusations and wallowing over the past OFF this thread. **

Let's move forward for the benefit of us all.

Go!

[Vijil]

I'm posting in the other forum since there's been a few more bites there.

[Icharus 461]

I think that where this has failed in the past was NZ paintball tried to be to grandiouse. In place of a national governing body I think we should have several regional bodies. That meet, discus and work together on the direction the country takes on the concensis of the majority. This will give an offical "presence" locally that players can talk to and a face they can relate to. Where they can directly contribute to a person and not some name in a far away corner of the country. It sould also enable regions to retain there own autonomy and flexability to deal with problems in there neighbourhood.

What I think is needed in New Zealand is a nationally recognised format and structure. That can work here, but is played over seas as well. I'm going to leave my bias for Xball on the side line here. I can't name a serious painbtall circuit that playes hopper ball 5 man :( While we don't have the money to play full on Xball (and I can't speak for the country on this next one) Auckland can't support enough 7 man teams to make it worth it either. I think that the creation of a regional governing body coupled with a recognised format would be the way for this country to grow paintball.
It's not a revolutionary idea this is the typical format for all of the major sports that are played in New Zealand. But I feel that when we talk about a NZPA we forget to build a solid foundation to build on.

[Vijil]

To be honest I think it would be harder to organise seperate bodies than it would be to get a single body working. It's also been suggested to have a seperate player representation body to the field rep body. Again, I think it could be pretty complicated. Why not just have one body with clear goals and roles? Perhaps they could have representatives in different areas to deal with local enquiries, but the internet works pretty well too. I dunno, what say you?

What we have already - a few guys who are working together to run the big three tournaments here in a consistent way. At the moment it's Noddy and Sy while Ants has stepped down. I have a hunch about who will be taking his place, but I'll keep my trap shut 'til we get confirmation. We can expect them to standardise the rules, the refs, and eventually introduce a league with series points. Cool beans.

These three guys pretty much by default form a kind of governing body. They'll be waiting a while before they get all that sort of thing off the ground, but I don't think that makes our conversations here and on the other forum meaningless. Brainstorming is good and will give people ideas.

Things that have been suggested on the other forum include:

A Field Accreditation system - Fields meet a set of criteria and are awarded membership. Membership lists them on an official website and gives them a stamp of approval of sorts. Perhaps more that is yet to be worked out, I'm not sure if that alone is enough incentive.

A Player Registration system - In order to play in any officially sanctioned event be it woods or speedball, players must be registered. This gives us stats about the player base in NZ as well as greater scope regarding punitive measures and the ability to administer things like division levels should the need arise. I believe membership should not be paid for by a sub, but should be "free" - ie. included in event registration fees. Saves a lot of paperwork. There is no benefit I can think of to having them seperate.

The other thing is that I think we're repeating a lot of stuff that was thought through by the NZPPA way back when. I bet it seems like deja vu all over again to those guys. Hopefully there are some new ideas coming through...

[B2]

The Tournament scene can change at any time so having "event" organisers as arent a good idea for a governing body...I could hold my hand up for Easter and based on that and the fact i run a field and play tournies as well as have held local ones for years..That woudl make me a Main player so I too am a Governor.
End of the day...there are fields who wont or dont give one rats ass about whatever Governing body we form..
I personally would struggle to listen to some school kid on a committee who for what ever reason is apointed to a Self Appointed Governing body...see my point..
It is going to take MONEY...and ppl with time and effort...
Series points...mmmm I dont like saying it but untill we get teams to actually do all three or four events..its wasted...

[Vijil]

As I said, that's why we need to think of better incentives for the fields unless you have people in mind who the fields would actually listen to?

The event organisers seem to me like a logical starting point for an organisation to me since players will listen to them and it's crucial that they're onboard, but I suppose that's up to them. They wouldn't have to start working with fields straightaway but at some stage things would need to be expanded/improved. One step at a time.

With series points, isn't that a good way to encourage people to show to more events? It's not like keeping tabs on series points takes any effort whatsoever once you've got a basic system in place so it's no loss, hell I'll do it. Gotta take the initiative because this way the teams that actually do bother showing up will be rewarded for it.

Anyways that's my 2c.

[Frodo]

My question is How is a governing body going to govern anything or anyone other than those who wish to be governed by it. (eg, members)

You can start a "club" but that only controls the members.

90% of ballers probably don't know this site exists, and most of them won't care even if they do know.

We do NOT want to screw with the Laws or start asking questions to people in firearms or police, if we turn into Australia, 90% of you will quit, I guarentee it, the sport here will die.
I deal with it all the time in Australia and living there makes it extremely hard to play the sport, visiting is easy with temp permits. (remember that Australia was ILLEGAL a few years ago, so all their crazy laws are actually a step forward for them which is why they are happy with what they have now)

If the organisers now are having problems running events now, imagine what would happen if we were controlled more with what we can do and where we can do it (like Australia) All tourney's I've been to in the last 2 years in AUS (Probably 30 odd) Have been at licensed fields/gun ranges only, Costs for us go WAY up and idiots will still run around their farms with un chrono'd guns.

We need to concentrate on Grass roots Paintball. Associate our regional clubs with local fields and grow our SPORT with new players. (which is up to the regional clubs) There is a definate divide between Rec and Tourney, and we have been working on getting the WAR aspect away from Tourney ball for years. Dont mix the 2, Rec is the fun side, Tourney is the SPORT/Competition side.
I started in the bush, now I play tourney, each to their own, but dont make everyone Play both in one series, that doesnt make sense.

Thats all I can think of right now.......... tired

[Big SY]

Ok ive sat here and read this , on both pages ..

Im one of the 3 tryn to run a tournie for the player , by the players ( like that phrase) New Zealand has seen commitee after commitee set up to organise and discuss things , I constaintly see people tryn to re design the wheel , yes make it better ,develop and improve
..
Im going to make a call , We should have an election for the NZppa its the offical recognised voice of NZ ball to the Police and government .. get this going
Hey why not / stop the talkin and get some action going .. as Jono has said if we try to legislate ourselves we will end up like Aussie and no one will play ball ..
Growing to sport .. we arnt a sport we are a past time .. Of all the teams that actually step up and play .. I think there would be 2-3 team who actually treat paintball as a sport , to everyone else its a past time .
To the rec ballers ,bush ballers .. look we are all in the same boat , markers , tanks paintballs .. just because I wear bright coloured Pj on the field and you wear camos , does make us any different . You play the way you want , I play mine
I personally think field ops ,legit and not so legit have a lot to answer for the strength of ball in NZ at the mo ..I have heard so much poison being spoken about people and events
NZ ball will not grow until people stop discussing things and bloody well do some thing ,I for one am..I am following the path that a couple have started
Do not force people to register to play , you will lose more ,we are to small for that .
like Ive posted before , 1st build a tournie , set the ground rules then build another then things will happen , to run first you must stand then you must walk ..
People want reps to talk to .. there out there ... Im here to talk to , dont like me cool .. I'll listern to what you say and discuss it , if you have a good point I'll agree
Use the Base that was started NZppa and develop it for our common good. Oh and we do have Big Bush games .. Herb runs one Annually and you know what alot of PJ weariers go , proable more than Bush ballers hehehe
Ok sorry for the rant have been at A&E with my Wife for most of the night , bloody ladders hehe we are both good
Sy
One last thing .. Im and approachable person , I dont have an issue with any pb person , but I do have issues with people who comment about people behind there backs and force there judgment of that person on to others , everyone has there right to an opinion
oh good bloody nite ... mawhahahahahaha

[B2]

Its the same thing every few years Sy...
I was reading an Old Paintballer Mag NZ /OZ one from back in the early 90s yes same old crap in NZ back then.....Except we actually had Teams attending Tournies and Recball stuff then..Yes we still wore camos AND played on a Tyre Field..and as silly as it may seem..I carried 800rnds back then.
Now for the "younguns" on here..We played 2 ends against each team withonly a 5mns break i think..Well enough time to change ya Co2 tanks and Pack...
My old Vm cranking out the paint with ma Pgp strapped to ma back..oh the glory days of ball.
But heres the goody...It cost more then , we didnt moan, we played and loved it..
Games were as brutal back then...
Stick was a skinny lil asian guy who carried way too much Paint...
Goldsworthy was just as obnoxious;)
Rob Maddox actually played
The parties on Sunday night were awesome..
ahh well Bman slips back to the now..

[Icharus 461]

Chincken Funky Monkey.

[Freighttrain]

Sorry to burst your bubble Sy but the "squad" is not hitting 5's because to many of us are dirt poor (we have a roster of 10 players and we struggle to get 5 on the day with the money) and we got more game time for our dollar playing in Scenario Sunday. Not to mention that Kyn sponsors the team. So if he has something on and we have the money, we look after his event first. I've encouraged Insane, thoes that want to go to 5's to do so. It's better for there development playing against the better players. As for 5's. I even said I'd leave my bias on the side line.
But it's just to much dosh for what it is. It is the most expensive day of paintball our team plays in and you get the least amount of game time. Once I get on top of my bills I'll be back so before you shot off that mouth of yours get your facts straight. Funny how it's just me you single out and not half a dozen teams that no longer turn up? Missing 5's is not exactly my choice. Ask my bank.

As I said hopper ball 5 man is played nowhere. I think it's been long enough that New Zealand should aim to hit something overseas and BIG. A change in format might encourage more teams to turn up, start up or come back. And better prepair thoes that want to try for something on the world stage.

"Talk the talk" I'll smoke your ass anyday.
Just name the place.

Thats just classic... for your information jarrod, the auck 5s is now hopper plus one. also if you or your any team attended any of the three major events in auckland wellington or christchurch you would be aware that they are full pod currently in a 5 man NPPL Format.

you call for change in paintball and yet you specifically dont attend these events that i believe that is very hypocritcal.

also personal comments and attempts at bravado are uncalled for. Simon is organising a top class event, what effort have you made to grow or promote the sport recently?

[Icharus 461]

Can I leave this blank?

[Vijil]

Understood Icharus, I'm in the same boat money wise.

Freight is right though, lets keep the personal stuff out. This is a pretty constructive thread so far and there are good ideas coming out. Be nice if it stays that way :)

[Icharus 461]

Yep I was just thinking that while I was away this is not the place to bicker. Look this is way off topic. I'm opening this up if you want to "talk" my PM is open fire away. But this is not the place. If you want me to go back and edit my posts just ask.

[Big SY]

.Personal insults by PM ,I believe are inapproprate
Congatulations you have preformed admirally but some many other teams and people have done the same .

I have mentioned to you privately that you do alot of work and I have offerd my assistance , but you have off handingly told me that I am not needed or wanted ..
Sorry guys what was pm'd stung alot .

[Wheelz]

Ditto Vijil.

Please keep this out of public domain.

May I suggest you both edit your posts before this snowballs?

[Icharus 461]

Sy: The sport could use every hand it can get. No amount of politics and bickering would ever have me sideline your help or anyone’s for that matter. So if you need a hand just ask. I'll be sure to do the same.

The only thing I don't want help with is training.

I think a governing body would still be the way to go. It doesn't have to charge fees. It could be regional or national. We could have a season or not.
It would be a bonus having an organized body that would be there to lend there opinion to those needing it, guidance for any one new to the game and give the sport in the country a bit of legitimacy. Even if it was just a cardboard facade that the community could throw up it would still be better then not having one at all.
Another thing that might help would be an actual calendar of events.

So can we gat talking about this again?

[Frodo]

A governing body would be good, but there are very few people in a position to run it correctly without potential adverse affects(with the experience, time and knowledge.)

Jarod, you say we should have an organised body to give guidance and support to teams and the industry in general, Yet you dont want to take any guidance and support from anyone thats trying to HELP you and your team.
Not many people have much experience in this country or Australia even, watching dvd's is fine to a point, and keeping up with current affairs is great, but having real experience 'Playing the game' is a completely different thing to watching a dvd and trying to figure it out on your own.

Now this is exactly what a governing body would be doing here, trying to figure it out on our own, because we ALWAYS automatically want to forge our own path here in NZ, not go with what is proven to work overseas (States, Europe), often causing more problems than we started with. Now thats what has happened in the past 10 years, like a revolutionary cycle of success and then followed by a massive low in players and low in cooperation between regions all wanting different things.

We really need to get advise from someone in the States or Europe on EXACTLY how to run something like this with procedures and guidlines. Maybe having 1 leading person representing each region (which have their own commitee and can get the needs and wants of their regions players and work with these players intrests in mind) and then have meetings of all those heads of regions to discuss a way forward that suits everyone. I dont like to speculate on anything, but if we do this, noone can be left out, and we need it to make sure we dont just go in the direction that best suits 1 singular person or region.

In my opinion we should start with regional commitees working together to create growth in regular rec and tourney players, THEN step by step slowly build up to a National commitee. Take it SLOW and easy, have a 3 or 5 year plan to build this the right way.

B2, Ants, Marty, Terry we have all seen the highs and lows of NZ paintball. It usually hits high points right after someone new comes in with enthusiastic ideas and goes off running with them, but then cant sustain their goals, or create a divide in our small community with petty bullcrap. We need to just stop and think about what is BEST FOR THE SPORT OF PAINTBALL IN NZ.


PS
Jarod, one thing obviously noone has told you is that you need to play against teams and players better than yourself to get better. Maybe next time there are US Pro's in Australia you should go to their clinic (in person) and let them critique you, so you can get any small bad habits out of your game and learn why things are done the way they are.

Jono

[sketchnz]

Jono for jesus.

[Icharus 461]

Hey Jono.
I don't want Sy trying to "help" train myself or Insane beause he and the rest of Legion have no respect for what we are trying to learn. The last time he did that he just forced his way into our training and started kicking one of my mates into position.
Plus the likes of Todd and Seth take every chance they can get to deconstruct and redicule us. And why is it everyone seems to have forgotten that Insane started way back in 1998? Me and Tabz are far from new when it comes to paintball.

Insane has been playing against teams that would be precieved as better. The current line up only came together at the start of this year. And it has been through the New School techniques and game time that we are now winning games.

As for the pro clinics. The last time we had one, I sat in on the Auckland one but had to ref and then took time off work to drive down to Hamilton so I could take part in the one down there. I didn't see Legion doing anything but sit on the side line and eat finger food. I've already expressed intrest in going to the one that Wheels is organising. If there is a pro clinic coming, then to right I'll go.

But MONEY!

[Frodo]

Fair enough mate, I too have been playing a fair while.
Its not that todd an seth dont respect what your trying to acheive, its how you go about it and the way you talk like max taught you, not that you watched his dvd.

I want everyone to get along, Its WAY too small a community to have the fighting and back stabbing that currently happens. I understand the effort to re teach yourself how to play todays style of paintball, Its WAY harder to try to change years worth of habits than it is if you start now and learn the correct way from scratch. Just try not to completely disregard what people say because you dont like them as sometimes new ideas can help. A lot of DVD's only cover the real basics and there are a lot of small tips that can really help your individual and your teams game.

Back on topic, I hope we can all find a way to work towards the same goals everyone wants, I like to think that the most important thing here is growth in regular player numbers (Rec and Tourney) with us able to sustain the larger community and not have these extreme highs and then lows. If we can have a large community all working together then we can get some control and move the sport forward.

[sketchnz]

A bit off topic: Jared i'm part of leigon 2, I train with the Hamilton guys every week and they're all from different teams the biggest hurdle we had to over come to get such a strong base which we have now is jealousy its hard to listen to other people when theres a rivalry from opposing teams expecially when there better than you. I train with numerous players that are better than me at certain aspects of the sport and sometimes its hard.
Now I hear wat ur saying about playing the sport for along time but its really down to skill and actually time on field at tournaments (what jono was saying) instead of time you actually started playing. Right now Sy Todd and Seth are some of the best players in this country that could help you with your game, as hard is it is to listen to them im sure there backed by good will some of the ridiquiling(sp?) could be a bit of jealousy geared towards the types of training you do.

On topic: I will be looking at getting support of the waikato ballers to see if we can start a regional based commity/community to help solve/tackle problems in relation to paintball in our area.

[Icharus 461]

Sorry I come off that way. I don't even take stuff exclusively from the one DVD either. That collection I've got is growing bigger most months. I watch it take it out to the field run it through for 3-4 hours and see if it's worth keeping. The crew and I run some stuff at practice. If it works we push it if it doesn't we drop it. At all times it's up to the player to make the decision. Because only they will know what works for them. We have stuff from training DVD's, clinics with the pros, old school drills and stuff developed in house. It's not just one DVD.

The bickering and back stabbing (sleeping around would be more accurate) will always be a part of paintball in New Zealand as it is in every country. The thing that most of us fail to grasp is that a Baller is really two different people. Off the field you should get along with everybody for the better of the community. While on the field you should be trying to funk anyone over who tries to mess with you or your familly. As people we don't to make that seperation.

Sorry Sketch: But I don't think Todd, Sy or Seth are better then me or my crew. As I've told Sy in the past Legions biggest strength comes from the team chemestry the roster has built up. I and the rest of my squad have issues with the fields that Legion set up too. As for playing time because I haven't been playing 5's don't mean I haven't been playing ball ;) and it's not constructive ridicule it's more like insults. It's the same with too many sports in this place. It's far easier tearing someone down then to train yourself up. That's the impression I've always gotten from your team mattes.

[Icharus 461]

Actually I have a few questions sadlly still off toipc...
Sketch, Sy and Frodo:
Why is it you think that Insane needs or wants your help?
Why is it that Sy brings this training thing up every few months?
Why is it that whenever something changes like a call for a govening body there has to be this resistance?
Why is it when someone starts ddoing something different (Insane trainings) there has to be this insistance that other people have to have a hand or nose in it?
Why is it that doing something good for Paintball means you have to be seen doing something just for the established "us" crowd?
Why is it (and god knows I've had to deal with this enough) whenever you do something to help the sport which is away from the tourny crowd no one sees it?
Charles: Why did you never show up to any of our events in Swanson?

[Muzz]

Dude no disrespect but i think you should allhave a big hug and leave it off the forums! I have read the whole thread and im sure the ontopic posts are out numbered a sh*tload by the offtopic posts. Just thought id point that out ;)

[TODDYbear]

Jarod you make me laugh and this thread is a joke. ( Marty start a new one )

[Freighttrain]

dead this thread please

[Wheelz]

Jarod you make me laugh and this thread is a joke. ( Marty start a new one )

No.
This thread has become a joke!
Read the very first post and see how far off course it's come.
This was far from the intention, and regrettably, I now wish I hadn't started it.
I can only hope that the good suggestions will provoke serious thought and consideration and, maybe, something positive will come of in the near future.
May this thread now find it's natural conclusion.

[Shane396]

Theres less hate in a prison than in this thread. And im talking like a nasty prison

[Frodo]

Everyone here in NZ needs to get out of the country and sample paintball abroad. And see what a country with growth and stability looks and feels like.

The reason people point out flaws of new ideas is to stop any more divides in our small communtiy.

We already have the Nzppa, Then there was the Nzppl, the council of captains and now we are talking about a new 'union' for the players and fields. We are too small to keep dividing.

We all need to support our local fields, try to get them to support our regions with leagues and Open days for recruiting new blood. Get our Regions in check, get some grown. Unite the country once we have some sort of stability. Then work on 1 single unifying commitee for all regions, using regional commitee members. Then we can have a spokesperson who can really speak on behalf of the majority of the NZ paintball playing population.

[Wheelz]

Sorry, but felt it was necessary to close this thread as constructive comments were being swamped by unnecessary bickering.

[dannefaerd]

ok. This is getting off topic.

I'm working remotely, so will close for now and sort out tonight.

M