Fixing the grassroots

[dannefaerd]

So in another thread (http://www.paintball.net.nz/showthread.php?3197-The-future-of-paintball) there was a discussion that started drifting towards competition paintball, and not focus on where we all start ... in the grassroots, in the bush - recreational with mate - however you want to describe it.

So this thread is to look closer at the issues that the sport ... feel free to join in.

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I always describe the paintball industry as a pyramid.


The base is the casual play/first timers/birthday/corporate parties - the core of a paintball fields operation.
The second layer are the more regular players - without gear, who tend to organise games and play several times a year.
Third layer are the recreational players, usually with their own gear.
The fourth layer are the tournament players.

Without a healthy base of a pyramid you can't have the higher levels...

The pyramid is not an indication of level of skill, more of the number of players in the level - As each layer goes up the number of players at that level decreases.

Each level of the pyramid is also an indication of the percentage margin that a field operator makes from them as well - again as the level of the pyramid increases the percentage margin decreases ... basically Field Ops make their money from casual/regular players and not from rec/tournament (generally speaking).

The plan is usually for players to progress upwards along the pyramid - feeding the number of players at each level, and hopefully using the players at the top two levels to act as a lowcost marketing channel for the field operator, dragging in players at level 1 & 2.

So the thrust of this thread is this:


What can/should field operators do to grow the first two levels of the pyramid?
What can players do to help field ops grow the first two levels & thereby help grow the sport as a whole?

If you've got another idea or thrust on this general thread be sure and post it ...

[B2]

My old ethos...I have told so many..Grow local, Grow Regional, Grow National..
Grassroots...hell I could dig up a few of my posts about that and see the pages of ideas and the apathy that creeps in.
Most Field Ops should remember their first game..I do...In fact I can picture most of my first few years in Pball better than now...Not because of old age because it was memorable..yip todays ball is just same old same old..Certainly at tourney level.
So back to Fops...Noobs first game MUST be the best they will ever play...So as a duty the Fop should do their utmost to make sure it will be...
Sure not all noobs will feel like you or I did first time around and may never come back...But you need to know you gave it your best shot...
You must have staff that can relate to noobs...Not some guy who doesnt play...tried that failed..No enthusism for the game.
Your 3rd layer Danners is possibly a crossover with the 4th...due to there been a higher percentage of the 3rd than 4th..and has been for many years..Just as Fops we dont see a large amount of them due to our Suppliers and TM supporting Backyard ballers.
Field Op menality...Yep gotta be said...I understand business and yes I hold my hand up and say I make a living...But unlike working for the MAN if nobody shows up nobody pays me...
So why do certain Fops go out their way to undercut each other...Grow your business on what you are good at ..Paintball ..Not like some backyard cheap ass car salesman who sells for half price just to get that one more person on his books.
Its how you as an Op sell the game...You can blow 1000s on advertising etc and get no return..You can talk to 4 groups of noobs as they get ready and after the game and sell your soul to them and they will return...talk is cheap...Advertsing in newspapers isnt...
Fops need to be united...maybe another meeting?
Ok Players...Now I have been lucky with Dunedin guys but it hasnt always been that way...Its always the same old guys that will help...They will be rewarded..and I am happy to tell the ones that didnt why...after all we are all big boys now..
Players in all reality are playing for themselves.
Never let your Tourney guys forget where they came from...That is where the future of Tournaments are playing ...At your local Bush field.

[Vijil]

In the states I'm seeing some interesting trends - namely that Vicious (a pro team) are now playing in the UWL - a woodsball league. That and a lot of old pros like Matty G and Bob Long etc. are playing more and more scenarios and just having fun. Pro teams will regularly attend scenario events just for the fun of it. I think that's great, and I'd A: like to see more organised scenario events in NZ and B: like to see more speedballers showing up at those events and being good sportsmen. Maybe there should be some kind of marker restrictions like a 10bps cap to keep things fun for the new guys.

More players at the scenarios, newbs get introduced to multiple styles of paintball, and more people playing rec. Win win win.

The only potential problems would be attitude issues from the speedballers ("f$%king noobs") or from the woodsballers ("f%$king clown suits") but so long as you could deal with that and make sure people went in with a good attitude then I think it would be fine.

[wonder]

on the note of another meeting . i have a venue in auckland to suit up to 70 ppl (free), wouldnt be hard for me to get cheap accommodation ($50-90 a night), also be easy for me to get a discount at a bar for dinner and drinks. wont be able to get a discount on flights but i can get free parking for 20 cars

"The only potential problems would be attitude issues from the speedballers ("f$%king noobs") or from the woodsballers ("f%$king clown suits")" luckily from my travels iv found that be be a mostly isolated to small patches thing and im impressed with the lack of it in the south island and how well everyone including a lot of the field ops behave down there.
brings me to one of a major problems i see. players being dickheads and the field ops that harbour them or even in some cases encourage them. these players need a good slap around the ears and told to knock off or piss off ( which is mostly what happens in the south island hence there are very few dickhead players down there ).

".Noobs first game MUST be the best they will ever play" something i fully agree with except i would go one step further. its not so much the case of the noobs are softer these days but more i believe we strive to get greater numbers of the population and this includes the softer ones that demand less pain, better less fogging masks, more game intensity for no extra money, more of the halo/ movie effect and expect to get something better that what they can get from the sports shop and the back yard. they need to be given this.

i got to go to town .. be back later to finish

[Rosey]

I can't really spend the time making the statements that i want to; so here they are in Bullet Point

> RecBall - As a tourney player, i've recently had some of my most fun times playing rec ball with friends/workmates.

> Open Days - I went Thunderball in an effort to play some rec ball, now I know im a tourney player and there used to be some Rec vs Tourny anger, but I swear that those guns, cool looking and all, WEREN'T LEGAL! Over 300fps (no one was cronying all day) and definitly not semi only. If I was a newbie, and there were a few, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to come back, and as a tourney baller, I've been put off the big game at the Hutt.

> First Timers. I think that there could be a potential for having a first timer package as well as basic options. This could be advertised on the website, brochure or over the phone with the organiser. If you turn up 10-15 minute early, first timers can have a 1on1 or a small group discussion with Field Op / Lacky in regards to the best way to play, where to go on the field, tactics, how to hold /use the gun etc? Working for Tag, I see some of the more timid players saying "i'll defend" they spend 2 games hiding at the fort, the last couple of games they decide to get into it and have far more fun than the first two games.

> Keep your group bookings age appropriate. I know TAG keeps kids and adults seperate, its part of taking the booking, to find out what kind of group they are, keeping stags together etc. People won't come back if they get messed up by another group. Regulars vs Newbies etc.

[Mr Vengeance]

I agree with all that has been said so far, although it doesn't matter if the local field is an area or bush. But you skipped over what I think is the big problem. Own gun players playing without supervision. Inviting new players to join the group, ' it's cheap,
I will lend you my spare gun, and scratched goggles'. Fields? that don't charge can't afford reffs, the owner is playing. No Safety. Experienced operators know this. And even the stupidest rec players will realise after a few goggles off, hot shots, and worst of all accidental discharges in the 'safe?' zone that paintball as they know it, is too dangerous. Experienced players will run back to their local field with unbelievable tales of gross negligence, and criminal stupidity. How many people Have left the game without being shown what the barrel sock that came with the gun is used for. My suggestion is for teams of ten to travel to these clubs for a LIMITED PAINT Tactical match, and show them how to use BBD's and supervise SAFETY. Renegade games are putting new players off the game. They come for the cheaper game and the disregard for basic safety puts them off all events, even at proper fields.

[dannefaerd]

Colin - some good points.

I shudder at the number of players who come to my field - after buying gear from another local operator, and who play at the other field semi-regularly - who have no idea what a chronograph or barrel bag are.

[wonder]

Rosey> First Timers. I think that there could be a potential for having a first timer package as well as basic options. This could be advertised on the website, brochure or over the phone with the organiser. If you turn up 10-15 minute early, first timers can have a 1on1 or a small group discussion with Field Op / Lacky in regards to the best way to play, where to go on the field, tactics, how to hold /use the gun etc? Working for Tag, I see some of the more timid players saying "i'll defend" they spend 2 games hiding at the fort, the last couple of games they decide to get into it and have far more fun than the first two games.

So simple, so spot on.
As standard with bookings you always ask if they have played before and give a basic run down on how things work/what to expect etc ( of course greater detail given in game, gear and safety briefing ).. but as you said, simply offering new players the chance to arrive a little early and have those few extra minutes.. give them that little bit more confidence.
Something I will be suggesting we do as standard from now on

[B2]

These things are not new...and so the wheel turns..
Until NZ Paintball Field Ops n Suppliers become united and STOMP out all that is bad in ball...Same time same space in 20yrs time when Im outta ball.
Its just words on the screen unless we become a genuine recognised sport/game...Most the probs are not created by noobs but by ppl I know who have been in Paintball for many years..
There are NO Standards....why because its just too easy not to have them..
I safety brief every group I have playing and over my years its 1000s...Every group is different...and yes it is ok to have kids and adults playing..Its how you play the games and Supervise the game that counts...
Some fields just arent good enough to support kids n adults together...
The problem is...due to paintball been a very emotive sport with the ppl who play it...we soon become all to consumed with doing the right thing..when doing the right thing at your field isnt the right thing else where.
Small steps at each field is better than BIG Clobber hoppers all over NZ Paintball and create more issues

[legionaire]

I am no longer a FOP and my focus is on the two top layers of the game . More woodsball with rules similar to speedball so it is not a big step for players . All the Ashburton players play both woods or speedball and yes some prefer one over the other but they all happily play both games. I am loving the big war games atm and ROF cap the electros so that new players on semi's are not completely out gunned and makes experienced players work harder . Keep the fun in the game!We played 35 vs 35 on a speedball field and woodsballers and tourney ballers loved it .

[Armagedonmad]

I am not a feild operator so I can't comment on that aspect of the game, but when it comes to growth of the sport.

The one thing I am sick of hearing when it comes to paintball is....how much does it cost, and then when people are told the price they say sh#t thats expensive.

My thoughts on that are if you want to play paintball it cost $$$ if you play at a commercial feild or at a club feild.

That is why there are so many back yard games and cowboy feilds trying to play as cheap as they can better to pay more and get quality.

Another thing I don't understand about paintball, the amount of players who can afford the most expensive markers but can't afford to play regular....go figure I would rather have an old tippmann and play every two or so weeks than own a flash $2000 ego but can only play 2 to 3 times a year.

My point after ranting on is the first thing a person who wants to play paintball has to realise is it cost money it doesn't have to cost as much as some people think but it does cost money so if you don't have money don't buy a paintball marker.

man I am tired been up all night haven't had much sleep so for give me if this does not make sence

[vince]

Another thing I don't understand about paintball, the amount of players who can afford the most expensive markers but can't afford to play regular....go figure I would rather have an old tippmann and play every two or so weeks than own a flash $2000 ego but can only play 2 to 3 times a year.

Amen!

[legionaire]

2ndd!

[Rosey]

I'd like to know how many people actually buy a $2k gun and can't afford to use them, thats like buying a V8 and not being able to fill it up so they keep it in the garage and don't even look at it. IT just doesn't make sense at all......

[NefariousNZ]

I pretty much agree with all that has been said...

I only played paintball 4 times over 2 years before I became a FOP here in Blenheim... Having very limited pball exp I had a very quick learning curve..

I remember my first games clearly.. absolutely loved it.. This had nothing to do with the FOP at the time so in my case it was all about unleashing the child within.. Being a former hardcore gamer and loving fps pball became the ultimate fps.. now i cant be farked with playing games anymore lol..

I have found that its all about selling the game.. being the hype man and having staff who mimic your actions on field... We have our bday specials, group deals yada yada...My field is pretty plain compared to others I have seen...

But what has got me more positive feedback was the atmosphere I create when I run games.. The ability to make noobs feel confident and take their enjoyment to the next level.. Helping them formulate a plan to revenge their previous loss.. Make them hunger for their next pball adventure... make them become a reg player..

When young timmy comes with his mates for his bday pball party and has the time of his life! Hearing all of his mates saying "thank you" and telling me their bday is coming up and they will be back is priceless.. So is the look on their face after they just whooped the opposing team with a well executed plan..

For some groups its all about the discounts.. not much you can do there.. The gear owners who have the wrong attitude.. The same group that play outlaw because its cheaper.. no matter how much you cater for them its never enough.. The group that over shoot newer players and call everyone noobs.. The same idiots that call blue murder when you send one of your clubbies in undercover and give them back what they dish out.. Cant handle the jandal.. No time for these fools..

I have played at an outlaw field not long ago.. went as a guest from a player who didnt know who i was.. safety was shocking.. clowns didnt even have a chrono... no safety speech... lucky i always come prepared... Even after all markers were tested someone snuck some tools onsite and turned up their marker to well over 300fps.. I got shot in the arm from about 100ft out and got a deep dark bruise about the size of a tennis ball.. Worse thing was there were players aged 11 running around.. now that I have seen this "club" first hand I can warn young ballers against the danger of playing at these rogue fields..

So for me its all about how you sell the experience more than anything else.. This relies on your ability to identify your group and there individual needs and meeting them..

Cheers

Oddz

[B2]

So the wheel turns...nothings changed and wont until we as Ops and Suppliers change things

[Bookie]

Interesting description of paintball Marty - and accurate IMHO, and I would say you are right, the trouble with ball simply from my perspective is tall poppy syndrome and to many people trying to be the man and trying to screw people over for increasingly smaller margins both figuratively and litterally in all the tiers you describe.

To enable ball to grow and gain the legitimacy needed, grass roots needs to grow, the regualr bookings and public playing, they need to enjoy the experiance and want to do it again and again... That then enables these peple to get hooked and play regularlyly and step into playing a lil more often 2-6 times a year... Then hmmm I'll by my first blowback and go to an open day or club day at my local field, which needs to be a controlled environment which is ballanced and regulated...

PLAYERS need to make them feel welcome, give them pointers and not be twits, yes there is the whole tourney Vs rec thing... wel that in my opinion is just bull, Rec players/milsim/ram are people too and from my experiance are excellent sorts but with every group there is exceptions, self regulation by those more senior or the FOP is needed...

Rosey your above comment.. Shame your not coming to the 24 hour game because of a minority mate, yes there was a cases of a hot guns and questionable rate of fire at the day you mentioned above, which Im glad to say the FOP did resolve and dealt with in his own unique way, as it was the boxing day event the usual practice of cronying as going on wasnot policed as all the players were regulars or experianced players, so new the rules re velocity and rates of fire, usually at regular Tball open days are hopperball only... why was this brought into place? A player we all know being the rope chucker of doom on noobs... Very counter productive... (and Im glad to say he could dish it out but couldnot take it)

I know that Shane and James have put alot of effort into controlling the event thats coming up, and are keeping it safe and controlled, and good on them for organising a quality event. And 100+ attending nationally is a great turnout!

Regarding tall poppy syndrome, hmm well to be honest there are some bloody arogant players around, for example after my 2 year hiatus, i decide after life changing events... I'll play again, so I grab a trusty mech cocker and head to a open day event which a new team of "pro players" are at, these guys a few of them were good sorts... some werent... a rec/social event so lets take on a 7 pod harness and shoot every one off the field, not good! when I tagged the richard cranium in question who cant argue the golfball sized welt on the side of his neck me spins and gives me 15 balls... thats the problem here you see what a great example to younger guys and newer players, he had no idea who i was or who i new but decided to be a richard cranium i happily let him do so.... He got restorative Justice later for his indiscretion :-) , and was digusted when i rocked up to aces and realised i wasnot some noob with an old POS original cocker.. This guy still is a richard cranium...

Now we cant help guys like this with penile cranial disorder but we can temper them as there peers so they dont discorage growth... If your first ever game as a real regular player after getting all your new gear you got mugged by an arsehole repeditively, would you have come back...?

Regular players be they tourney milsim bushball or ram need to foster thiose coming into the sport... not scare them off..

Players need to support their field ops not shaft them and switch loyalty for a better deal... Ive seen this happen numerous times over the past 15 years support your local operators... and they will support you... they dont make money off regulars who get everything cheep they make their living off the grass rotes... the playing public.. so all regulars need to be a vehicle for marketing... :-)

The industry is another matter all together, it needs regulation as that is the problem yes theres cowboys... then there is the other end of the spectrum aswell poor buisness ethics and acumen....

The industry needs to clean itself up and not screw itself for a percentage... It needs to balls up and take care and deal with cowboys but also those with a lack of true acumen or ethics..
The industry needs to truely self regulate... And formalise a body to do so as if they dont, well as B2 has said... around and around it goes... Talk is cheap action isnot. You guys are compeditors YES but you can all also behave ethically and honestly.... because a minority certainly doesnot.

my .02c

Bookie

P.S edited to remove excessive profanity

[suspect]

First off - I raise my hand as a player that has a $2000+ marker and cant afford paint.
SL94 EGO/Rotor/68 tank

But in my defence, I started with a Tippy A5/tippy mask/overalls about 15 months ago and it has only cost me another $400 to get what i have today through buying/trading/selling. And I am saving for a wedding so its not that I can't play but have been told that I won't.

So big thanks to all the players and FOP that have helped me grow and develop in my short time. But I would like to say that I too have had mates put off by bad behaviour. In particular at Tball. now I know its hard for the staff to keep track of it all especially when the chrony is so far away from them, and they don't really ref the games on open days, but I always make a point of handing someone an allen key when I see them chrono and go to walk away hot. I make a point of mentioning that the full auto they were blasting down the target range is illegal and not to shoot me with it. and on boxing day I saw experienced players and FOPs ignoring other players doing this right in front of them and this made me wonder why I should even care. But then I remember why my lil 14 yo cousin stopped coming to open days with me, and it was because some idiot was shooting at over 350 on his tippmann bravo in the containers, because "someone shot me and it hurt so I turned mine up".

I don't know the history Bman. I can only guess how many talks/forums/bloggs have happened over the years, but I do read people commenting on safety and regulations/legalities online but don't see experienced players preaching it at the field.

I think its like someone said earlier - getting in and talking with folks is a good way to make them feel welcome. Might also be a good way of explaining the rules to them ie "hey I see you got a ION. does it shoot fast? straight? oh its set to full auto. did you know blah blah "

anyway 2:30 am so I better stop trolling the net.

[Jamie Innes]

Some interesting ideas here, but getting back to post number one...



What can/should field operators do to grow the first two levels of the pyramid?
What can players do to help field ops grow the first two levels & thereby help grow the sport as a whole?
If you've got another idea or thrust on this general thread be sure and post it ...

The answer I think is restrictions on ammo, moreso than restrictions on ROF. Kamikazi Steve has a good business model for mixing veterans and first timers. People shoot mech guns and they shoot a hopper per game. (And because there are scenarios there are reloads available).

Now restrictions on ammo doesn't necessarily means less paint sales. It depends on how you run your games. You can say 200 rounds per game and if the game is an hour... you'll sell a lot less paint than if the game is 15 mins.

Now for everybody in the top 2 categories who don't like ammo limits... well you have to consider that it's an ideal environment to have fun with alternative technology. Pistols, pumps, Smaller hoppers, whatever. Consider this a way to participate, when you play like this, you're basically able to to play with noobs without absolutely destroying them.

[Big SY]

I agree that FOPs are they entry point for people to play paintball , staff are the window dressing and equipment is thefurniture ..
And too many feilds are poorly run , set a bad image . hey it can be said with every car workshop..
Paintball is abusiness for FOP .. stop callin new players Noobs would be a great start .. people have some many choices now a days
The comparison was made about motor cross riders , buy new bikes and ride them and they dont compete in races .. ITS BECAUSE they dont want to..
Guys same shiiite .. great ideas .. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT .. we are not a formal sport .. we are an out door adventure .. we arnt as weird as air soft ..we dont even have forum representation .. yes fliers could be sent to gun city and your local sports store who sells the gear and give them guide lines .. gat velocity etc .. bt will they listern , its like field ops .. every one out there thinks there way is the best and only way .. on a side note .. do you know how many ways there are to do an oil change on a car .. you still get the oil out as the final point .. but there is 4 differnet ways i have been shown and told , but 4 differnet people .. think about it , it does relate to thins topic

[duke974]

one of the things kamikaze steve does is if theres alot of kids he will give each group of kids a experienced player or 2 to keep an eye of them, the kids like it, the exp player likes having a little army and every one has fun

[Vijil]

Here's what Tippmann are doing to try to get people into the sport, it's a TV commercial paired with a website that helps you find fields to play at:

www.trypaintballnow.com

Very cool idea. I'd like to see something similar happen in NZ.

[Mr Vengeance]

Tippman sells guns. 'No controllers.' As a field operator it would cost a fortune for my share of a nationwide campaign. But in the long term it would be worth double that to stop it in it's tracks. Sorry Vigil but I am sure this would result in a flood of phone calls canceling the few bookings I have. Own gun players are fun to have around but as far as $'s go the trick is to find out the cheapest way to get them to go away. Before you's dismiss this post, How much PROFIT have you generated for your local field. I'm not bitter and twisted, just old and experienced. This shows a melee, buy a gun, run around shooting guys until your cheap goggles fog up. Get on line and in NZ you should be able to find it for free. Or am I doing it all wrong, give the game away and try and sell the safety as an optional extra?

[Vijil]

Except that this ad was specifically pointing people to fields (the entire website is built around that), didn't mention Tippmann guns specifically, and had nothing to do with renegade ball. Doing a campaign like it in NZ would have nothing to do with selling guns. As for own gun players, whether they're a problem for you would really depend on your paint markup vs the field/rental fee?

What's actually happening is that the industry are looking at paintball, looking at airsoft, and realising that in order to grow as an industry we need to get more people playing in the first place. The best way to do that people need to go to fields and get hooked. Tippmann are thinking long term here, not just trying to sell guns in the short term. They know the industry is in trouble and know that just selling a few guns wont fix that.

Regardless all this is beside the point. The point I was trying to make is that a similar campaign ie. advertising for people to try paintball and guiding them to the closest field would be cool. I don't know how likely it would be though.

[wonder]

that kind of thing would be to expensive in NZ. i priced it up about a year ago and every field would have to through in about $1000 each per month. tv advertiaing in the US is cheaper than news paper adds. would still be cool though.

some food for thought. when work outing time comes up, if the work place has no paintballers that play at fields but has say 2 people that go fishing on charter boats what has the majority vote. not paintball a.
now if it has say a paintballer that plays at the local field 2-3 times per year with his own gear, what happens to the vote. paintball now has a chance.

you may not make money out of that own gun player that wants everything at half price but you will make something out of his 20 work mates that would other wise go fishing.

now what happens if you drive that die hard paintballer away and hook the prices in . he plays in the bush with a bunch of mates. now what happens at work do time when there is no vote for fishing ( or anything else) " hay we got this bit of bush and i can get my mates guns.. wont even cost you 1/6th of....." and you still miss out.

dont be a di ck , look after your regulars, make them feel like they are your friend, give them a good price and dont hook it into their mates or anyone else to much and in return you will get their mates business which will make up for anything you dont make directly out of them.

[Vijil]

ya tv ads are expensive. There's always radio and print ads.

Regarding profit, I suppose that means you treat own gun players as loss leaders - you don't make that much money off them, but they get more people in the door. Wouldn't it make sense to charge them the same (or maybe 20% off) paint prices though and waive the field fee? After all they aren't giving you gun and mask maintenance to do, but they are using your paint and messing up your field.