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ANTSMAN68
19-04-2006, 22:08
Could a mod please sticky this?

In order to try to deal with a number of problems relating to dishonest playing and referee issues which are becoming more and more apparent at every tournament I attend, I am proposing a new reffing concept.
Hopefully this concept will help to address blatant cheating, bending of rules, pushing the boundaries, playing the grey, whatever you want to call it. As a side benefit this concept will no doubt increase the referee decision making quality/speed, consistency ,and above all hopefully help players to gain some respect for the people that enable us to play paintball, the reffs, as without players sure we cant play ball, but more importantly without reffs we cant play ball, end of story.
Historically refereeing our tournaments has been the domain of players that cant either afford to play a tournament, or don’t have a current team to enter , all trying to do their best on the day, to the best of their ability, which in general is rewarded by the players with accusations of lack of intelligence, profanity, insults, threats, taunting, and general immature, hot headed behaviour.As well for their efforts , our reffs have come to expect very little or no support/remuneration, whether verbal or monitary, from anyone, be it tournament organizers, playing community, or anyone else for that matter, so what we end up with are a handful of people after each tournament, that have given up their holiday weekend,usually away from their family, to be shot at , sworn at, belittled, humiliated,laughed at, and put under the microscope on forums, all because they wanted to help.
Are there any players out there that do not realize that all of the things I listed above (and more) actually do happen at every tournament?

Is this how we want things to keep going?

I for one don’t want these things to be happening and still be talked about this time next year, and the year after, and the year after, and the year after that, because that is the road which we are heading down. This is the way it has been since my first tournament in 2001, and if WE do not change, it will continue indeffinately.

I think our sport, paintball , needs new direction with regard to the way we referee our tournaments. Not just in the choosing of reffs but the whole refereeing culture.

I have identified some problem areas .
1. reffs usually only reff once or twice, as the negative feedback puts them off.
2.reffs get very little to no respect from players.
3.reffs give up their own time at their own expense to reff for us.
4.reffs get very little back from players/tournament organizers, whether a pat on the back or monitary reward.
5.because most only volunteer once or twice, there is a huge lack of consistency from tournament to tournament.
6.cheating has become so blatant and so frequent, and the chances of being caught due to inexperienced/inconsistant reffs is so small, that a lot of players think the risk is well worth it.

In order to help address these problems I think we need to re think the whole ball game.

This is what I have come up with.

We need to source a core of at least 8-12 semi experienced players preferably 4 from north 4 from mid 4 from south, if possible, that are committed to attending the 3 or 4 majors for the year , as a team of reffs. Ideally the people should have no strong ties to any one team, to try to avoid future problems with accusations of bias.These reffs should be lead by an ultimate reff, with a firm decision making head, and possibly a 2 IC.These reffs should be “their own team”, eventually be “ tight knit “, and hopefully build trust and camaraderie.

This achieved ……

We need to have them get together at least 1 full day before each tournament, to discuss issues, train and test each other, and generally hang out and get to know each other.

This reffs group will have all travel to and from the event paid, all accommodation paid, all food and drink requirements paid, and actually be paid a fee for each day reffed.

Where will the money come from for this? It will be built into the teams entry fee.Why ? because quality, and preservation/protection of our sport costs.Thats right campers, if the event organizer does not have to fork out for this, because we do, how can an event organizer say no to New Zealands own Paintball Refferee Team?

For this to work, we first need

1.People to see this idea for what it is worth, and volunteer.

2.Tournament organizers to buy into this scheme, and use the team of reffs for their events, and give them their support/backing, and have faith that the rewards from their combined efforts will help to build more teams and get them to their events in the future.

3.Players in the teams, and more so Team Captains need to show their support, verbally, on forums, pay the extra in the entry and really get in behind this concept.



Everyone in tournament paintball ideally should support this idea for the purpose of consistency in the quality of tournament refereeing, if not anything else.

I know this idea has been floated previously numerous times, with apathy towards fixing the problems that we all know are there being the major downfall.

I don’t have the answers, but I sure will try my best to improve what we have, because when my 11 year old girl starts playing in a few years I do not want her facing what we face today.

If we do not fix the problems(cheating/reff consistency), how will they get better?How will we grow the sport?

I am offering to help coordinate this idea, with anyone else that wants to help.

I picture once the reff team is sorted, and a figurehead for the group is identified, they be left to train , and communicate with each other via a closed section in one of the messageboard/forums that we use,with the figurehead taking control, and guiding them , and they then become a self supporting/sufficient entity with a strong bond, which we as players support by requiring them to be used at tournaments we as teams attend.

The first year for the reff team will be the hardest I would think, with the group trying to find its feet, and get some events under their belts, and yes there will be problems, and yes there probably will be some drama, but if we do nothing , we may lose more teams/players, risk losing potential young players, and likely be in the same situation that we are in year after year.


enough from me

what do you all think, is this something that NZ teams want and need?

Ants

MikeE
19-04-2006, 22:53
True...

Newsflash to everyone - we are losing people who are prepared to ref tournaments:

Vanessa, Link, Stimpy, Link, AJ, the Havok guys, Ben (http://p069.ezboard.com/fnzpaintballfrm32.showMessage?topicID=326.topic) etc - you just don't see them putting their hands up anymore. And its because the abuse just isn't worth it.

Since starting paintball in 1998 I've refereed these events:

7 man Easter 2006 NZPL Wellington
5 Man Northland Open 2006 Auckland
5 Man Northland Open 2005 Auckland
5 Man Nations Cup 2004 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
7 Man Labour Weekend 2004 Rotorua
7 Man Queens Birthday Weekend 2004 Auckland
7 Man V Comp 2004 Hamilton
7 Man Volcanic 2003 Rotorua
7 Man Superball 2003 Auckland
10 Man 2002 Rotorua

+ various 5 and 3 man events
+ tried to bring ollie over and got stiffed by non paying players
+ tried to get a pro ref clinic, but no interest

After easter I won't be doing it again. Good luck finding more refs... it aint gonna be easy.

Oh yeah... and I'd continue giving up my holidays, and reffing for free if players acted like adults and respected each other. I don't care if you abuse the refs to be honest, but at least show some sportsmanship towards each other. No amount of money would make me interested in being involved in any way, shape or form with current attitudes.

Vijil
26-05-2006, 15:09
Just randomly read this thread and had a thought...

Other sports have rules whereby there is no point dissagreeing with a ref, but if you do yell at a ref or hit them or anything like that you'll be suspended from the next tournament/game.

That's basically what we need. If people have an issue with a call made by a ref, they should take it up with their captain/coach, who can take it up in person with the head ref (and no other). As our sport stands there will be no way to prove anything and so it will be unlikely that the results will change as the result of a complaint, however the refs would at least be able to learn from their mistakes and get a better understanding of the grey areas and the types of calls that may be disputed. If and when the sport becomes properly televised in this country we'll maybe be able to start reviewing decisions, but til then the only way to make our refs come back is to get rid of the crap that goes on, and the only way to do that is to ban it and impose penalties. The kind of conduct I've seen even just at the one tourney I've been to is A: almost enough to make me quit the sport and B: would have resulted in a few hits with a banstick in any other sport.

So bring on the banstick.
My 2c.

Master_Blaster
31-05-2006, 18:43
:) From an outside perspective I would like to give you a point of view… humour me! :)

Your problem in New Zealand is not a unique one!

South Africa had (have) the same problems, but in the recent year thing finally started to come together. Getting Marshals to volunteer for an event is just a bad idea. Players marshalling players is even worse.

This is how we got is going...
A marshalling body was started and these were trained on a nationally agreed set of rules. (We choose NPPL).
All marshals were then certified by writing an exam and doing a practical assessment and were graded accordingly.
Marshals are remunerated according to their grading. You can improve your grading through experience. (Slowly). The best way to improve your rating is to just redo the certification process. There is also an incentive for marshals to improve themselves and to attend events. This means more money!


All event organisers and commercial interests have to step up and the country has to commit to use only the marshalling body as marshals at the events. That way the quality of the marshalling is ensured. You don't have some kid running around the tournament making bum calls. This is now a "professional" marshal where quality is ensured.
Event organisers pay the Marshalling body for the event. That way they can pay their marshals and invest money in more training etc.

Another key success factor is that you have to have an Ultimate Judge that does not take crap.
You can't argue with the marshal (1-4-1) and only the captain of the team can lodge an objection.

This new marshalling body idea has been implemented at two events already and I must admit it is already getting better.

So far in the game...
Look you will always get bum calls. It's a fast paced sport.
Over time bad calls will be minimised.
This process is not without problems but at least it is shows results.
Remember: There will always be critics but if you do the job properly they too will go away.

Three key things to achieve here;
1. Get the Marshalling body started and the marshals properly trained & graded.
2. Obtain commitment from all stakeholders and event organisers.
3. Enforce the rules. NO DOUBLE STANDARDS.

Hope it helped. ;)
Why should you reinvent the wheel when countries in a similar position have shown results through this idea.

ANTSMAN68
31-05-2006, 19:46
hey man, thanks for the post! yeah the buy in from all involved, tournee apoerators, players/teams, is a definate must, thanks for your input :)

Ants

Frodo
01-06-2006, 16:35
but you need to get people who know what they're doing to teach these refs in the first place.
Fly in an international ref, who spends his life reffing.

ANTSMAN68
01-06-2006, 17:37
yes Jono , ur right, but the problem as i saw it begins with no willing availbale people to be able to teach , hopefully Stimpy and Hugo will rectify that.

Frodo
07-06-2006, 15:33
yeah, or maybe it will be just a case of now we have 'credited' refs who can officially call themselves refs who STILL cant ref to save themselves.

some experience is what we need as this country has a complete LACK of it.
And those few who might know and understand the game of paintball enough to ref adequatly refuse to help, as the larger proportion of NZ ballers arent worth helping.

B2
07-06-2006, 16:21
I agree Jono..well to apoint.
Refs ..hell who wants to be one...But Hugo/Stimpy may at least give us some consistancy in what already is a difficult role to fill at an event.
It woudl be good to bring in a Certified Ref from overseas to school up the ppl wishing to learn..Im all for that.
After this "training" these guys shoudl be at all events in NZ..not just BBT.
Now thats all good until it comes down to the almight dollar..who pays.
To me the event organiser does...ok so some of it comes out of our entry fee.
Its just one less hassle for him to think about..pay ya dollar get the job done.
Its start Jono and Im all for that.
Bman

MikeE
07-06-2006, 16:32
Neither of these two players have reffed at nor attended an international event. Neither of which knows or has any experiance in cheating like buggery, which is needed to ref properly - if you can't cheat, you can't ref.

If anyones going to teach people to ref in NZ it should be Jules and Jono, both of whom have considerable overseas experiance and know every dirty trick in the book (this is a compliment not an insult).

I really hope it doesn't end up with the blind leading the blind. I'll go to the training ... and see how much naughtyness I can get away with.. hopefully whoevers down there will learn a bit about what to look otu for.

ANTSMAN68
07-06-2006, 19:18
LOL,while i agree about what Mike is suggesting , i would pay money to be in the same room as Jono and Jules when they are having a disagreement about reffing, after seeing Jules throwing a few paddies on the weekend,(blocked toilet and other unblamable capital offences) at no one and everyone... as it would be EXPLOSIVE :)

Frodo
08-06-2006, 18:12
Keep talking, sounds fun